As much as I don’t wish my blog to become the all anti-Zeitgeist blog all the time—hey, my last blog was about The Paper Chase!—I’m taking the liberty of making another entry to respond specifically to one of my critics. He has commented often on my previous work both on this blog and others. His handle is “voiceofreason467,” and I’m doing this blog because he has stated on more than one occasion that I usually “ignore” points he makes or “change the subject.” Therefore, I’m going to go through a careful and complete response to his latest comment (on this post) mainly so it’s clear that I have responded to him fully and directly.
All quotes in this blog are voiceofreason467’s unless otherwise indicated–he quotes some of my own words back to me and I indicate that.
“You say that he [Peter Joseph Merola] is the leader of the movement, yet in multiple places he has declared that is not the leader of the Zeitgeist Movement. In fact he says it quite bluntly at an appearance at where they showed both films that he is not a leader and nor does he want to become a leader. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPjSUZJx6Y4 You also have at the very end of Zeitgeist: Addendum the message of J. Krishnamurti that where he says people need to become their own leader. So if he is a leader, why is he stating quite obviously that he is not?”
What Merola says about his leadership role is totally at odds with what he does. This is a constant problem with the Zeitgeist Movement: their emphasis on “pay attention to what we say, not what we do.” You’ll see that theme repeated often in this response. From Merola’s actions it’s clear he is in control of the Zeitgeist Movement. He wrote the “Resource Guide,” which is the basic dogma of the Movement. He is the one who decides what goes on the Zeitgeist Movement website. He is the one who decides who is in the movement and who’s not. His control of the movement is unquestionable.
“Also if he is the leader, where is he giving orders? Can you provide me an instance where he tells people what to do with the movement, how to do it, and forcing others to become more active? If he was a leader where are these statements being put forth?”
Yes, I can. Here he is directing the responses of members regarding robots and mechanization. Here he is proclaiming that the movement will not collaborate with other activist organizations—ironically he does this in the context of throwing a tantrum that his entreaty to activist David Suzuki was rejected. He (Merola) was the one who decided the Movement should try to collaborate with Suzuki in the first place.
“Also if he was a leader, why is the only thing he seems to be able to be in charge of is how people promote his films? Also it doesn’t seem to be mandatory that they promote his films to begin with (at least not the last two anyways).”
Because promotion of the films is the only significant thing the Zeitgeist Movement is actually doing—which means that by your own admission Merola is in charge of the most significant activity of the Zeitgeist Movement. The Movement is remarkably inactive. You are not building cities. You are not making plans. You are not raising money. You are not lobbying politicians. You are not engaging in charity activities. You are not coordinating volunteers. The only things the movement is doing in any systematic way is creating hour after interminable hour of repetitive radio addresses, lectures, and other “get the word out” activities—which are functionally indistinguishable from promoting the films in the first place.
Don’t lecture me about “look at what the individual chapters are doing!” either. The activities of the individual chapters are so slipshod, scattered and uncoordinated that any modest achievements of the chapters are entirely incidental to the movement. It’s rare to find a chapter that’s doing anything more than “getting the word out” anyway—because Merola makes no attempt to coordinate members from the top down to do anything other than that. Once again, what members say they are doing is not relevant when it’s at odds with what is actually happening. What I see actually happening is a million different shades of “getting the word out”—which is a fancy way of saying “promoting Peter Merola’s films.”
“Also if he was a leader can’t he have any views of his own that are separate from what the movement advocates? I mean, is it possible for his views and some of the things that he might espouse or does do in some way cannot be apart of the movement?”
It would be one thing if Merola maintained a very careful and deliberate separation between his own views and the activities of the movement. Far from doing that, he deliberately blurs the line, by doing things like using the name “Zeitgeist” on the movement that claims to have nothing to do with the films, when in fact it has everything to do with them. Merola’s double-standards regarding this are extremely troubling and indicate that he regards the movement as a vehicle for advancing his own views. If this wasn’t the case, why would he have spent the time and effort (and, possibly money) in reissuing Zeitgeist: The Movie with a supposed “companion guide” to refute the debunkers? If his views were so separate from those of the movement, why would this action have gotten so much attention within the movement?
“I will agree with you that he’s the public face and has done many an interview and broadcast and whatnot. But how does this make him the leader of the movement?”
Because it is very clear that his public relations activities are geared toward demonstrating that he is in absolute control of the Zeitgeist Movement’s ideology, orthodoxy and coordination. He’s the one who decides that the Zeitgeist Movement won’t be raising money, won’t be working with this group or that group, or wants to solicit the attention of David Suzuki (and then throw a fit when Suzuki turns him down). No one else is even close to having this measure of control.
Douglas Mallette is doing interviews and videos too, but no one mistakes him for the leader of the Zeitgeist Movement, because it’s obvious he has no control over its direction. Similarly, even Jacque Fresco is not presented as a leader of the movement. What day-to-day control does he have? Indeed, what is he really doing, and what has he done for the last 35 years? Not much. By contrast, Merola is where all the action is. To deny he’s the leader is silly and makes the movement look hypocritical. Every movement has a leader. The fact that you have one isn’t the problem; it’s the fact that you pretend you don’t, which is obviously false. Why are you so embarrassed at Merola being your leader? Could it be because acknowledging that he is the leader of the Zeitgeist Movement makes it harder for you to distance yourselves from his conspiracy theorizing and the bad press it generates?
“It just means he has more resources at his fingertips than anyone else and more time to devote to the cause of promoting the movement and spreading awareness of the movement. How does this qualify him as a leader? I don’t get it… that is like saying if I did the exact same thing, this would qualify me as a leader.”
No, it wouldn’t, because as I explained above, no one has any illusions that you have any control over the Zeitgeist Movement’s ideology, orthodoxy or official dogma. You can’t write the “Knowledge Base,” expel people from the movement, determine what arguments will be used against your critics, or tell individual chapters that they shouldn’t be raising money for this project or that project. Only Merola can do those things, and there’s a reason why only he can do them: because he intends to remain in control of the movement.
[My words] “He, and others appointed by him, determine who is in the movement and who will be banned and banished for not being supportive of it. In every meaningful way he’s in control of the movement.”
[voice of reason] “Can you substantiate that they are even appointed by him to begin with? Also, from what I remember their policy is to reach a democratic decision on who to ban and for what reason if there needs to be a meeting about such a thing. If your talking about people banned from the forums… well they have stated why people are banned from the forums. Your basic statement is that “omg, the mods are following the rules and enforcing them… Peter Joseph must be a leader!” that conclusion is patently absurd. Also, if you are referring to the forums and he banns others then why don’t you make the same complaint about every other forum? If your going to complain about people being banned from the forums then I suggest one simple action… follow the damn rules and there wouldn’t be any big deal about it. Also one of the rules is you have to be a member of TZM in order to use the forum… we have a teamspeak for non-members you know. Your statement, even if it is true… has absolutely no evidence to back it up other than your assertion.”
If Merola or somebody working with his official imprimatur isn’t appointing moderators on your board, who is? In any event Merola himself often bans people—Ed, for example, who was banned for disputing Merola’s conclusions about 9/11. You say, “follow the damn rules,” but who comes up with the rules? Merola does. “One of the rules is you have to be a member of TZM…” And who decides who is or is not a member? Merola, or, if not him, others who are implementing his vision of who is “worthy” of being a member or not.
Even the very concept of there being members and non-members contradicts your argument that TZM has no leaders or orthodoxy. If there was no gatekeeping function at all, then anybody could be a member simply by identifying themselves as such, regardless of what they believe or assert. Obviously this isn’t the case. My point is that somebody is making the determination that Belief X or Statement Y either is or is not consistent with the idea of being a member. Who is making that determination? Peter Merola is.
“Being a ‘core generator of interest’ for movement members (as I have pointed this out to you many times before) is not the same as being an integral part of the movement.”
Um, yes it is. The reason why you pointing this out to me many times before doesn’t stick is because what you point out is simply false. You can’t separate a movement’s goals from the major reason why people join it. People join Amnesty International because they’re upset about human rights abuses. This makes total sense, because Amnesty International’s main goal is to promote human rights. People join the Zeitgeist Movement because they’re upset about conspiracies that Merola tells them (erroneously) exist. To claim that the Zeitgeist Movement therefore has nothing to do with eradicating conspiracies, even though the #1 reason it attracts people is because of conspiracy theories, is simply nonsensical.
“You seem to like playing semantic terminologies in order to link anything and everything that can be into it. It would appear you a master at word manipulation because you also convince yourself.”
No, sir, I’m telling it like it is. How many of TZM members are conspiracy theorists? Fifty percent? Sixty? Eighty? This isn’t “word manipulation.” It’s very clear that there’s a strong conspiracist bent in the movement, and neither Merola nor anyone else has done anything to eradicate it. In fact, they invite it; for whatever bizarre reasons you want conspiracy theorists to be heavily involved with this movement, possibly because Merola views them as having “woken up” to “the truth,” and thus their opinions are, in his view, more valuable than those of people who don’t believe the same conspiracies that Merola does.
“If it is an integral part of the movement, why do we have 3 lectures by Peter Joseph, numerous broadcasts by him and a number of interviews where he never even mentions the subjects of the films that are conspiracy theories?”
This line of questioning assumes that Peter Merola’s lectures are relevant to the main tenets of the Zeitgeist Movement. They’re not. How do we know this? Because the Zeitgeist Movement takes no significant action to advance the ideas Merola talks about in his lectures. There’s no effort to implement the utopia he claims to believe in. Where there is a fundamental disconnect between the goals an organization says it is advancing, and the goals it is actually advancing, one judges that organization by what it is doing, not what it says. Therefore, Merola’s lectures are irrelevant.
“Why is it that when TZM came into existence he basically stopped talking about 9/11, Federal Reserve Conspiracy Theories, or has even mentioned Economic Hit Men or even John Perkins in his interviews?”
He hasn’t stopped talking about them at all. He talked about them for 220 pages in his “resource guide” released just a few months ago. How does this count as “stopping talking” about it?
“Also from what I seem to remember, the only time he does is when he asked about it. This seems to be inconsistent. Now you will of course say “well he made an updated version of the first film and he made an updated version Addendum along with a source guide for the 1st film,” and to that I say… so what? He can’t update a film and create a source guide for it without it being apart of the movement? From what I understand, he only did it as a reason to answer the claims of the film being unsourced… if it was apart of the movement we would hear his reason for it being something like, “I decided to update the film material because the movement needs to be updated on the relevant issues promoted in the first film” or something like that? But do you find such a thing?”
Again this assumes that there can be no disconnect between what Merola says and what he does. For the millionth time, I’m basing my judgment of the movement on its actions. When its actions don’t match its words, the words are untrustworthy. Therefore, there’s nothing relevant to be concluded from what Merola did not say—but it’s very easy to conclude from what he actually did that he still believes in these conspiracy theories and that he still believes it’s vitally important to promote them through the Zeitgeist Movement.
“No, you predicate it upon guilt by association. In other words, PJ is the creator of the films, he is the creator of TZM, he is lectures a lot, he does a lot of interviews, he is the most active person in the movement to date, he is very influential. Conclusion: Peter Joseph must be the leader of TZM and decides what goes on. However the point being is obvious… he doesn’t give any orders, doesn’t create a standard for movement members, doesn’t require people follow exactly in his image and doesn’t require anyone to do so.”
Guilt by association only works when the association is unintended. Merola clearly intends the association between the movement and conspiracy theories. He has said this explicitly on many occasions (here, again). He wants this association. You can’t point to a deliberate association by the leader of your movement and claim I’m being unfair by using “guilt by association.” It’s not guilt by association. It’s guilt by direct action.
He does give orders (see my link above where he directs movement members to deploy certain arguments against critics). He does create a standard for movement members, which you admitted by referring to the concept of there being members and non-members—someone is determining whose behavior fits the idea of being a “member” and who isn’t, and it is Merola who is doing that. (Example). It couldn’t be clearer that he’s the leader.
[my words] “Nor could his repeated statements, in response to people who want him to change the name of the movement, to the effect of, “You want me to jettison a name recognition that brings us millions of views?””
[voice of reason] “And this reason is for what? He created the name so it something that is easy to find. Besides, the word “Zeitgeist” is not copyrighted by PJ in case you forgot, there are many organizations with that word… one of them being an art/musical promotion organization, is Peter Joseph a leader of that organization too? Hell there are even a few cafe’s with that, did he found that as well? Breaking down this argument it becomes blatantly clear why PJ won’t change the name… because even if we did you would still be screaming that it doesn’t count, and people will still attack us just because PJ founded the movement and he is associated with the films. People want to change the name of the movement to stop people attacking it from the basis of the films yet what these people fail to realize is that it won’t happen, people like you will still attack us regardless if we changed the name of the movement. However, another reason is because it brings a lot of hits to TZM and is an easy way to find the movement. So basically your saying is that because the movement is related to the films by way of name, that must mean the movement is apart of the films? How is this not a guilt by association?”
Once again: it’s not guilt by association because the association is deliberately intended and promoted. You have here admitted that Merola deliberately desires the attention focused on the movement by being associated with the conspiracy films. You have here admitted that he values the association, and that you do too, because it’s good advertising. By these admissions you’re precluding the possibility of it being guilt by association. The association is absolutely deliberate. Therefore, you can’t escape criticism based on that association by claiming the association is accidental.
As for claiming that it’s pointless to change the name because I wouldn’t accept that, let me tell you that I would be delighted if the Zeitgeist Movement changed its name and simply faded into the oblivion reserved for dull neo-utopian ideas that never see the light of day. If Merola made a concerted effort to dissociate himself and his movement from conspiracy theories, I really wouldn’t care about the Zeitgeist Movement. I would still disagree with the ideology it purports to advance, but decoupled from conspiracy theories there’s no reason to think that a movement standing behind that ideology would attract any significant cachet anyway, so what would be the point of criticizing it? In actuality, however, the Zeitgeist Movement will never jettison conspiracy theories, and will never change its name to avoid them–because conspiracy theories are its meal ticket and its entire reason for prominence. You don’t even bother to deny this, and I have yet to meet a Zeitgeister who claims that the “resource based economy” garbage would be just as prominent if it hadn’t ridden to semi-fame on the back of Zeitgeist: The Movie. This in itself is an admission that what I’m saying is correct.
[my words] “It could not be more clear that he actively promotes the conspiracy theories within the rubric of the movement.”
[voice of reason] Where? You haven’t given me any evidence other than your word for it? Where is the evidence that he promotes the “9/11 was an inside job” in his lectures? Where does he promote the “federal reserve conspiracy theories” in his lectures? Where does he promote the pagan parallels, astrotheology, antiquity of sun worship, Jesus never existed and the plethora of other subjects found in the first part of the first film in his lectures? Where does he spend an hour or an interview talking about it as the subject of the interview and doesn’t just talk about it only when asked? Your statement is just “he does it” without giving a source. Where is the source that proves your correct?
Here is the source that proves me correct.
I’ve bolded the relevant words in your argument because, again, your entire argument is predicated on the erroneous idea that what Merola says in his lectures represents what the Zeitgeist Movement is about. It isn’t. As explained above, Merola’s lectures are not relevant. They would be relevant if it was evident that the Zeitgeist Movement is actually taking action to advance the ideals proposed in these lectures. However, it isn’t. What it is doing is promoting conspiracy theories by promoting the two movies. (Yes, two, not just one—Addendum pushes conspiracy theories too). I am not impressed by what Merola drones on about for hour after interminable hour in the lectures that nobody would listen to if he wasn’t the director of the Zeitgeist conspiracy movie. So, arguing that his lectures are the whole enchilada is pointless, because the lectures are largely irrelevant to the Movement.
“Using a faulty analogy is very interesting. You use a political party as an analogy to an activist organization that rejects the political system… I don’t need to even say anything more than that to point your analogy is faulty other than it is also an absurd analogy at best.”
An absurd evasion. My point, regarding the Obama White House’s goals of advancing Democratic Party ideas, doesn’t hinge on the politics—it’s an example of an organization that very clearly advances goals that aren’t specifically spelled out in its organizing charter. The Zeitgeist Movement does not say it’s promoting conspiracy theories. But it is doing so.
“Um.. I am an atheist so the obvious to number one would be a no. Also you seem to not understand your argument. In order such an assertion, you have to back it up with evidence. Everything I have said I have sourced with evidence or can you find quite regularly. You have provided no evidence, your logic is faulty, you predicate it upon a number of logical fallacies (the main one seems to be guilt by association).”
Unworthy of serious response. I’ve presented plenty of evidence, my logic is very sound and I’ve explained at least twice now why the charge of “guilt by association” holds no water here.
“Why don’t we take your view of TZM being a conspiracy theory organization to the view KeithTruth espouses by saying that TZM is just a communist movement that is promoting theosophical ideologies. They are both predicated on the exact same logic being, 1. The films are the movement, 2. TZM promotes what is in the films, 3. TZM associates itself with people who are apart of the organizations that promote the notions in the film.”
I don’t know who KeithTruth is, and I don’t believe the Zeitgeist Movement’s officially-stated ideology is even as coherent as Communism, but it is clear that the films are the movement, TZM does promote what’s in the films, and TZM does associate itself with people who promote the notions in the films.
“It is basically the same line of reasoning… the only difference is two… one is a “conspiracy theory” while the other isn’t, and then there is the fact one concentrates on one subject that is completely different from the other. The very fact that I make an analogous observation to a more absurd view that you even deem wrong but uses the exact same reasoning, the exact same logic, the exact same methods… then would it not follow that your view is completely wrong and also absurd if we follow Occam’s razor?”
Completely incoherent argument. Occam’s razor has no relevance to the discussion anyway, even if you did understand it, which it is clear you don’t.
“Also if we do follow Occam’s razor we can obviously show that these are just personal views and actions of Peter since he doesn’t seem to affiliate them with the movement when he is talking about them and quite often states that these are his own views or at the least indicates as such. However, with your view, Occam’s razor is thrown to the wind in favor of “everything he espouses is associated with the movement.”
Unworthy of serious response, as I’m clearly not making that claim; I’ve explained why Merola’s views on conspiracy theories are being promoted directly by the movement, and I don’t claim that “everything he espouses” is. For instance I would imagine that Merola has strong political beliefs. Clearly he’s not promoting those through the movement, nor would I suggest he is. But since he deliberately intends the association with conspiracy theories, it’s clear he is promoting those through the movement, and not as his “personal views,” but views that he hopes everybody ascribes to.
“So on this point of reference I ask you, if what you say is true, then why do we not find that he is promoting everything within the movement every chance he gets if the primary concern for TZM is the promotion of conspiracy theories and the only thing you seem to be able to latch on are statement’s found on the forums?”
You’re forgetting that the main statements of promotion of conspiracy theories made by Peter Merola consist of two feature-length movies, one called Zeitgeist: The Movie and the other called Zeitgeist: Addendum as well as 220 pages of poorly-sourced argument in support of the spurious claims made in these films. These are the major documents that espouse what the Zeitgeist Movement is, believes in and promotes, so naturally these are the main vehicles of promotion of conspiracy theories.
“Also why do you ignore everything I say and not even address everything I point to you.”
I’ve done so quite often, and have made this blog specifically to address what you said in your last comment. However, since it seems you will accept as legitimate nothing less than total agreement with and endorsement of the fiction that you propose is at the heart of the Zeitgeist Movement—which I believe I’ve demonstrated is fiction—it’s not surprising that you attempt to minimize my arguments and pretend that I haven’t addressed the counter-arguments.
I promise that my next blog will have nothing to do with the Zeitgeist Movement.
I have created a response article:
http://zeitgeistresponds.wordpress.com/2010/12/15/long-rant-of-an-article-by-muertos/
By the way I do not appreciate your misuse of sources and still ignoring those things I have addressed else where along with the leaps of logic.
Mr. Muertos, if you want to call him a leader, fine. When people denounce him as a leader, and himself as well, then who are right? He may have started the movement, yes, everything starts somewhere with something or somebody. A movement is all about common views, and when some views differ too much, people have to be told so. That is logic, isn’t it? Or else there would not be any movement. There would be fractions, like in Christianity, where all the offspring branches claim to have the answer. Well, we do not have fractions but chapters all around the world. And with half a million members in his “fan club” – if you will, do you really think he has the time to look through who suits the movement the best? Do you really think he sits there, alone in his room and decides this? I mean half a million… all around the world!
Promoting the films is NOT the only thing TZM is doing. Addendum is the film, which is used for reference, yes, so it HAS to be promoted. Now is that wrong? Some people have reading disabilities, a movie or a lecture is a great way of reaching out to them.
TZM are letting people know about the movement by “creating hour after interminable hour of repetitive radio addresses, lectures, and other “get the word out” activities” because that is what people do when the promote something. If we had trillions of dollars to spend on advertising, it would be easier would’t it? Then again, we don’t.
We are not building cities, a great observation. At this point, how can we do that?
We are not making plans? Well, in order to do something, like building a city, you need planning. What do you think we do? Besides, a city is so far away from where we are now; it is stupid even asking where it is. Right now it is about real change and not supporting the system, not the Obama-change, or the Obama-diversion if I may, but to create awareness about the fact that we, the people, actually being cornholed by governments and banks.
We are not raising money because why the hell should we? We want to eradicate the monetary system. I guess you misunderstand the very meaning of being anti-monetary.
We are not lobbying politicians? How do you, my dear friend, know the whereabouts and actions of 500.000+ people?
We are not engaging in charity activities? As a movement, no. However, I believe some of the members are doing just that. Again, how do you know the whereabouts and actions of half a million people?
We are not coordinating volunteers? The entire movement is based on people wanting to make a change. Iaw they are volunteering.
500.000+ people around the world are promoting the following:
One. Expose the banking fraud. Citibank, JP Morgan Chase, and Bank of America are the most powerful controllers within the corrupt Federal Reserve System. It is time to boycott these institutions. If you have a bank account or credit card with any of them, move your money to another bank. If you have a mortgage, refinance with another bank. If you own their stock, sell it. If you work for them, quit. This gesture will express contempt for the true powers behind the private banking cartel known as the Federal Reserve. And create awareness about the fraud of the banking system itself.
Two. Turn off the TV news. Visit the emerging independent news agencies on the internet for your information. CNN, NBC, ABC, FOX and all the others present all news pre-filtered to maintain the status quo. With four corporations owning all major media outlets, objective information is impossible. This is the true beauty of the internet. And the establishment has been losing control because of this free flow of information. We must protect the internet at all times, as it is truly our savior right now.
Three. Don’t ever yourself, your family, or anyone you know, to ever join the military. This is an obsolete institution now used exclusively for maintaining an establishment that is no longer relevant. US soldiers in Iraq work for US corporations, not the people. Propaganda forces us to believe that war is natural and the military is an honorable institution. Well if war is natural, why are there 18 suicides every single day by American veterans who have post-traumatic stress disorder? If our military men and women are so honored, why is it that 25% of the American homeless population are veterans?
Four. Stop supporting the energy companies. If you live in a detached house, get off the grid. Investigate every means of making your home self-sustainable with clean energy. Solar, wind, and other renewable energies are now affordable consumer realities, and considering the never ending rising costs of traditional energies, it will likely be a cheaper investment over time. If you drive, get the smallest car you can and consider using one of the many conversion technologies that can enable your car to be a hybrid, electric, or run on anything other than establishment fuels.
Five. Reject the political system. The illusion of democracy is an insult to our intelligence. In a monetary system, there is no such thing as a true democracy, and there never was. We have two political parties owned by the same set of corporate lobbyists. They are place into their positions by the corporations, with popularity artificially projected by their media. In a system of inherent corruption the change of personnel every couple of years has very little relevance. Instead of pretending that the political game has any true meaning focus your energy on how to transcend this failed system.
Six. Join the movement. Go to the thezeitgeistmovement.com and help us create the largest mass movement for social change the world has ever seen. We must mobilize and educate everyone about the inherent corruption of our current world system… along with the only true sustainable solution, declaring all the natural resources on the planet as common heritage to all people, while informing everyone as to the true state of technology and how we can all be free if the world works together rather than fights.
These “rules”, so to say, reflects the voice reason for 500.000+ people, and it does not bother that we at the same time promote the work of an artist for free. In addition, where are the conspiracy theories that we promote? Can you find them?
It is clear that you have some personal issues towards Peter Joseph. Whatever evil and dismay he has caused you will not overcloud what the movement is about, because the movement is not about him. He materialized it by making Addendum, and the voice of reason spoke to many people, and still does… every single day. I thank him for opening people’s eyes and connecting people all over the world. However, he is no savior or leader for me.
People join the Zeitgeist Movement because they are upset, that is correct. Again, I ask specifically about these nutty conspiracy theories that Peter Joseph tell us exist, and that we so firmly believe in.
Having that said, conspiracies, conspiracy theories and false flag operations are a result of a system now working. Waco and the JFK assassination are two rather dubious ones. The Manhattan Project, asbestos, Watergate, Operation Northwoods, the 1990 Testimony of Nayirah, The Iran-Contra Affair, the CIA drug running in LA, Gulf of Tonkin, The Business Plot, Operation Ajax, Operation Gladio, Bohemian Grove, the war on terror and Iraq and now with Wikileaks there are sure more to come… the government and mainstream media ridiculed these nutty conspiracy theorists back then. Guess what, they were not theories after all! This shit happened! All of it. And it was lies upon lies upon lies to begin with. Now how can anybody, anybody at all after those incidents, blatantly believe what government and media says? The docile masses do. We don’t. By the way, what do you call a person who was right about a conspiracy?
I am not saying that 9/11 was an inside job. It was tragic, but the investigation of it was incomplete therefore people, be it survivors, regular Joe or those who lost loved ones, they are looking for answers, and they got every right to do that.
You don’t accept that?
Now please, tell me what conspiracy theories TVP and TZM are based upon. Be specific. And don’t rush it.
Your comment is a very good illustration of why I think the whole Zeitgeist phenomenon is so unfortunate, because it misdirects the energies of smart people in the service of something that is a complete waste of energy at best, and counterproductive at worst.
You’re obviously a smart person and you have a genuine desire to change things for the better. That’s commendable. Unfortunately, whether you are actively a conspiracy theorist, it’s clear that you’ve internalized conspiracy thinking and a conspiratorial worldview–whether as a result of being involved with Zeitgeist or whether Zeitgeist merely attracted you because you already thought this way doesn’t really matter.
The world is not run by evil bankers, nor is it run by the Federal Reserve. These are conspiracy theories pushed by Zeitgeist. (You asked me for examples that TZM and TVP are based upon–there’s two right there). Most people who believe in these conspiracy theories are genuinely unaware that they are modern re-dresses of very old (late 19th/early 20th c.) anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, which used to run along the lines of “the evil Jews control the world!” Nowadays overt anti-Semitism is unacceptable as a marketing strategy, so the people who currently push these theories simply change Jews to bankers or global financiers (whatever those are supposed to be) and play off the fact that most people today don’t understand the intricacies of finance, so how will they know they’re being fed a line of crap? This is classic conspiracy thinking. Unfortunately Zeitgeist and the Venus Project are fundamentally based on these false notions of how the world works.
The “banking fraud” is a fantasy, a conspiracy theory. Real life is much more complex. You want to reduce the problems of the world to a few monolithic boogeymen, or blame everything on “the money system.” This is shallow and unrealistic thinking. Blaming the state of the world on the Federal Reserve, energy companies and the U.S. military is a totally simplistic and one-dimensional view of the world. Unfortunately this is the view Zeitgeist and the Venus Project are based on.
Zeitgeist and Venus isn’t a bad idea because it wants to change the world. It’s a bad idea because the world it wants to change is not the world we live in, and because it fundamentally misperceives the world, its solutions to change it are going to wreak havoc instead of improve things. This was the point of my “Seeing Like A State” article.
You also exhibit conspiratorial thinking by assuming that everything I or others who criticize Zeitgeist know or think comes from an officially-dominated information structure. You refer to people “blatantly believing what government and media says” or “the docile masses,” and you exhibit a common trope of conspiracy theorists, which is to dredge up meaningless things from the past (many of which you totally misperceive, such as the Gulf of Tonkin or Operation Northwoods) and trumpet them as “conspiracy theories that came true!” All of these are traits of conspiracy theorists and show the degree to which you’ve internalized a conspiracy worldview–which, once again, is the very basis of the Zeitgeist Movement.
“Where are the conspiracy theories that we promote? Can you find them?”
– Evil bankers rule the world. (Redress of anti-Semitic conspiracy theories)
– Money system is the root of all evil. (Redress of Marxist conspiracy theories)
– The Federal Reserve is unaccountable and controls the world’s money. (Common right-wing US “patriot movement” conspiracy theory)
– Christianity and religion are a false construct. (Acharya S., Priory of Scion, Jesus-never-existed conspiracy theory)
– All governments and political movements are the same, i.e., a “one world government” or something close to it. (NWO/Alex Jones conspiracy theories)
– 9/11 was an inside job. (You carefully shy away from endorsing this theory, but you clearly did in a previous comment by trotting out the long-ago-discredited “why wasn’t Osama indicted for 9/11?” gag. If you’re not a Truther yourself, certainly you’ve been heavily influenced by their false propaganda).
You also mention Bohemian Grove, which indicates you’re familiar with the works of arch-conspiracy theorist Alex Jones. If you believe Bohemian Grove is a “conspiracy that happened,” I’ve got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
These are the conspiracy theories that lie at the heart of the Zeitgeist Movement and the Venus Project. Jacque Fresco has said explicitly that he believes in the Illuminati. That’s a classic NWO/Alex Jones type conspiracy theory.
All of these theories are demonstrably false. Yet, the Zeitgeist Movement is based on combating them. How can you expect an ideology to work when its main focus is combating ridiculous fairy tales that don’t really exist? Even Marxism has more on the ball than the Zeitgeist Movement does, and you see how well Marxism worked out.
My advice to you is this. Give up the Zeitgeist Movement. It’s deeply authoritarian, deeply conspiratorial, and it’s run by unstable people who have no clue what they’re talking about. When you sit here apologizing for the movement’s lack of action by saying “it’s a young movement” and “we’re still organizing,” and when (as you did on Twitter) defend the bizarre and paranoid behavior of a movement that purports to love all humanity compiling an enemies list (which is how this whole debate started), it’s time to throw in the towel and join a real movement for social change. There are plenty of anarchist, socialist and other ideological groups out there with real goals and real agendas, instead of a bunch of kids playing around on the Internet and pretending to be activists. I don’t agree with anarchism, but at least it’s a valid and supportable ideology. The Venus Project is not. You’ve been taken in by con artists and charlatans. I hope you snap out of it.
Well, thank you. I beleive we both are fairly smart, but with different views on the world. You obviously beleive that your world wiew is the right one, I’m humble enough to say I don’t know what the hell is right. I don’t take it for granted that the official story is true, because history proves otherwise. But hey, I forgot your law school-background there for a minute. You tell me to snap out of it, well I tell you the same. Telling me that reflecting on conspiracy theories is almost silly, that’s just bullshit. It’s called critical thinking.
You say no, I say YES, the world is run by the banks and the FED is the icing on this corrupt cake. Money runs literally everything exept our bodies, and the system is outdated. There has always been conspiracy theories and there will always will be with the current system. It is unjust and people living in the comfortzone sadly won’t trade it for anything in the world. It is egoistic, disgusting and unhuman, and if i was religious i would call it evil. Defending the current system is insane.
And please, don’t give me that antisemittic crap. I don’t hate anybody. If the origin of this theory was way back then, so what? It is here, alive and well.
It sounds to me like you can debunk every single conspiracy theory there is. That is so ignorant and narrow minded. But again, you had that law school thing going on earlier and i beleive that shaped your world view quite a bit. Actually, I didn’t know half of the theories you mentioned, so you clearly know more about it than me. I see now that my question should have been “can you prove that these theories are wrong?”. Well, prove to me that the banking fraud is just a theory. What you are saying now is that “you are wrong” without any form of evidence to back it up. Like I should be ashamed for thinking otherwise. You just point to a conspiracy theory. That is not debating or discussing, nor debunking, only faultfinding. What do you think? What do you mean? Forget about TVP and TZM and conspiracy theories for a moment. I’m challenging you to come up with something. What can we do to make the world a better place?
“Real life is more complex…” – like I am some cyber-nerdy kinda dumb kid that doesn’t understand anything. I happened to mention some pretty important historical geopolitical incidents in my post. If you call that to dredge up meaningless things from the past, man, I have to ask you what planet are you from? Or to make this a bit more humorous; who the hell are you working for?
We need people like Alex Jones. Personally, I think he’s a religious nut, but he is adressing some important issues and dare people to listen the voice of reason. If you ever did that, you wouldn’t attend law-school in the first place.
I do beleive that the only fairytale here is the one you are living. “…a bunch of kids playing around on the Internet and pretending to be activists” – Wow that is very mature.
You say you don’t agree with anarchism. Well but of course not, you attended law-school! Besides, anarchism is not one but several ideologies, and they all suit TVP pretty fine.
The real con artists and charlatans of our world work in the highest positions of finance, government and business. And for all that I know, you sir are one of them.
Now that we know this is waste of time for both of us, being qurious that I am, I got three final questions for you:
1. Are you religious? If yes, what kind?
2. What is your say on Wikileaks these days?
3. What do you think about Ron Paul?
It’s really sad that you’ve been taken in by Zeitgeist because I think your energy and intellect could be much better used serving a real cause that has real results in the real world. Zeitgeist is just a fantasy, like I said, kids pretending to be activists on the Internet. It’s not real. Real charities like Amnesty International, World Wildlife Federation and UNICEF make a difference on the ground. They don’t make excuses for inaction by saying “oh, we’re still organizing” or “oh, we’re still a young movement” like Zeitgeist does, and they certainly don’t push bizarre conspiracy theories.
As for your three questions, I am religious but belong to no organized faith (I am not, for instance, Christian, Jewish or Muslim), I really don’t care much about Wikileaks because they’ve never published anything consequential anyway (so prosecuting the guy is pointless), and I think Ron Paul is a fascist lunatic.
Here are my three questions for you:
1. Are you willing to categorically state that you do NOT believe 9/11 was an “inside job”?
2. Do you believe that the “Illuminati” or the “New World Order” actually exist?
3. Did you get involved with Zeitgeist as a result of watching the first movie?
While I’m sure you and I have different political views, Muertos, I appreciate your insights into TZM and TVP, they’re always entertaining, well written and utterly convincing. Keep on keeping on.
Thanks! It’s refreshing to get some positive comments on my blog once in a while. Glad you enjoy it, keep reading!
Sorry for the late reply, but weekends for me equals family and the real world.
Again, trying to talk me out of TZM and TVP is pointless. You think TZM is inactive, when we on a global scale make people listen to the voice of reason and help them snap out of the status quo for just a second? Do you really think that igniting and promoting critical thinking is to be inactive? If you do, I think it is sad.
I’m involved in other oganizations and movements. The frustration lies in the fact that with the current system it is almost impossible to make a change. You need trillions of dollars to make a change, Amnesty, WWF and UNICEF surely knows that, (not to mention the US government, the FED or even the norwegian government). And with the corruption and injustice being done everyday everywhere, it is impossible to keep up with and/or fight. Changing our valuesystem is what TZM is all about, and that’s what we’re trying to do. Justice, peace and freedom for everybody and everything on the planet. Just like the organizations we have mentioned.
If you can specify what kind of religious person you are, that would be nice. What do you beleive in?
Do you mean letting the public know, even the most ignorant ones, how politicians actually work through mainstream media is pointless? Do you think diplomatics working as spies, the US fighting a secret war in Yemen, that the Saudis want the US to bomb Iran, that Fatah knew about Operation Cast Lead before it happened, do you think this is information the public don’t need to know of?
I tell you what it does, it promotes critical thinking and the voice of reason, two intellectual necessities I firmly beleive is essential for humanity to evolve ideas and progress. It raises questions regarding democracy as we know it (the corrupt version of the representative one), global politics and how misguiding the mainstream media is.
If the end result of Wikileaks is internet cencorship, the people will revolt in one way or another, which ,in in my opinion, we should have done decades ago anyway.
Is this a fascist lunatic talking bullshit based on conspiracy theories?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuktREisgA4
1. I cannot deny anything regarding 9/11, because I think, along with a lot of people all over the world, that the investigation is incomplete. A new, independent investigation into 9/11 is not unfair to ask for, especially when those who lost their loved ones demands it. I thought that you with your lawschool background did understand that. When all the questions are answered, the truth will be known and justice will prevail. I don’t care if Bush himself planted explosives in WTC, bin Ladin and the CIA remote controlled the planes from a cave in Bora Bora or if North Korea was behind it all, or whatever conspiracy theory you present to me. The point is; questions remain unanswered.
2. I don’t know if you mean if I beleive the Illuminati / NWO is some kind of evil religious cult who rule the world or not. What I do know is that the Illuminati ceased to exist in the late 1700′s. I also know that the existence of the Bildeberg group and the Trilateral comission is real, and that it is logic for me to assume that these elitists have major influence on world politics and economics. Some may call this the new world order or the Illuminati. I call it elitism and the end result of capitalism and a corrupt representative democracy, which is a joke and a illution in the first place. The profit motive corrupts everything. Period.
3. I didn’t get involved in the movement after watching the first movie, because at the time, there was no movement. The first movie is a work of an artist, which I beleive is courageosly raising questions, and at the same time it is challenging the viewers to think for themselves during the film and after viewing it.
I do not blindly beleive that jesus christ never existed. He probably existed, along with thousands of other religious figures. I am an atheist, so I am ending the religious debate there. It is importaint to say that I don’t have a problem with spiritual people as long as they are keeping their beleif for themselves.
I am yet to find or understand any solutions, thougths or ideas that you may have in your replies, or even if you are a part of a movement or anything. A personal view on the matter (how to change the world for the better)would be nice…
First of all, the Zeitgeist Movement does not promote critical thinking. It promotes conspiracy theories, logical fallacies, and the leader principle (that being blind trust in Peter Merola and Jacque Fresco). It also promotes what some people call “cargo cult” thinking, which is similar to the religious belief of the South Sea islanders who, after World War II, built landing strips and control towers out of bamboo and believed that cargo planes full of booty would land on their island and make them rich. The Venus Project similarly believes that by taking some as-yet unspecified steps, the world will transform into an automated paradise where no one has to do any work, there are no hard decisions, and there’s economic bounty for everyone. This is exactly the opposite of critical thinking. It’s magical thinking.
I don’t follow any organized religion. I believe in God and my relationship with Him is on a spiritual level. That’s really all there is to say about it.
Wikileaks hasn’t published anything that isn’t already common knowledge. It’s no surprise that Arab countries want us to attack Iran. Nor is it any secret that U.S. diplomats conduct intelligence activities, or that the U.S. military has accidentally bombed civilians in Afghanistan. Anyone who is the least bit surprised by anything on Wikileaks is profoundly naive. Again I say, what’s the big deal? Who cares? Have you actually read some of the documents on Wikileaks? They’re boring, inconsequential crap. Not worth my time or anyone else’s.
When people call for a “new investigation” of 9/11, what they usually mean is that they want an investigation that results in the finding that it was a conspiracy. Contrary to popular belief, the various investigations of 9/11 (there have been several, by the way, not just one), were in fact very thorough. The “just asking questions” garbage is a way that conspiracy theorists use to cloak their true motives. This is conspiracy theorist apologism, pure and simple.
The first Zeitgeist movie does not “challenge viewers to think for themselves.” It feeds them a line of bullshit and demands they accept it unquestioningly. Zeitgeist is a lie. The film is demonstrably false and has been proven to be so on many occasions. Yet the leader of the Zeitgeist Movement, Peter Merola, continues to defend it, and trashes people who disagree with his ludicrous views on conspiracy theories. This is not “challenging viewers to think for themselves.” This is behavior very similar to that of a cult leader. I don’t believe Zeitgeist is a cult (at least not yet), but it’s very similar.
Zeitgeisters love to ask the question, “Well, what’s YOUR plan for fixing the world?” This is a disingenuous question, because it frames the debate as meaning that if I can’t solve all the world’s problems in my blog comments, then we have to try Zeitgeist because “it’s a better idea than anything you have.” Personally I believe the world will be improved by raising environmental consciousness, electing politicians with progressive platforms, and charity. That’s my plan for fixing the world. What absolutely will NOT work is the Zeitgeist/Venus plan of completely trashing the entirety of human society and replacing it with an artificial, high modernist planned order that will have disastrous results. Zeitgeist and Venus won’t make the world a better place. It will make the world a much scarier, bloodier, hungrier, and more frightening place than it is already. Zeitgeist and Venus won’t improve the world, they would royally fuck it up. You don’t have the right to fuck up my planet, because I live here too. But fortunately, your movement is so ineffectual and laughable to begin with that you’ll never come close to achieving your goals anyway, so all you can really do is keep spreading conspiracy theories and vague statements about how much you hate the money system.